We"re 20-odd comments in and still nobody has mentioned Jesus Christ Superstar?! Fifty years ago, Christ was cast inthe film as white, blonde and blue-eyed. Do we say now that this doesn't matter (à la the examples of Cleopatra and Anne Boleyn), or is this different because Christ has for centuries been painted as a white person and so the film is another example of a biased rendition?
Casting is one thing. We've been casting people who were not the same race as the person or character probably since the beginning of drama. Let's not get into the history of boys playing women and the history of drag, though we supposedly get the word drag from the sound their dresses made on the stage during Shakespeare's time.
My issue is to say that someone who was mostly inbred Macedonian‐Greek was African, when she probably wasn't, misses actual African women who ruled Egypt and other parts of Africa. We need to hear and read about these women. We hear about interesting European women more than Asian, African, Indigenous, etc. women.
You forgot Amanda Barrie in Carry on Cleo, pretty sure Cleopatra didn't have a Lancashire accent 🤔🤔
I remember a lass on your facebook page moaning like a bitch about Jodie Turner-Smith playing Anne Boleyn and how she was outraged at history being changed etc, etc. Thankfully though I was able to calm her down (not!) by reassuring her that Anne Boleyn was still a dead headless white woman. For some reason she told me to fuck off, can't see why? 🤣
Such a lip smacking finger licking fresh eclair with hot coffee for breakfast post. Kind of like Richard Burton in a senate toga emerging from a carriage full of blond Roman bougies. Glorious.
1. "Feet up, spark a fat one, watch the internet burn down." well, yeah
and not only that but then
2, "It might piss you off to see any person playing any historical figure with whom they do not share the same race, sexuality, gender-identification, etc etc, because you are insane, you believe in destroying the first principles of acting, you have lost the faculty of critical reasoning, or at least the ability to reason a position through to a general conclusion, you have drunk all the twenty-first century Kool Aid now, it’s time for you to go home." I know SOOO many of those people.
ALL IN ONE POST???
Brilliant
As Bob Marley said, "You got so much tings to say right now"
First sign of the apocalypse!! Personally I'm pissed that Anthony Field was cast as a postman on Bluey. Anthony? The guy that had children singing and their mothers swooning??? He should have gotten a much bigger part. Where do I write in!?!?
ALWAYS INTERESTING. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ANGLE AND EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING SO REVISIONIST THAT IT MAKES ONE NUTTY IF THEY PAY ATTENTION TO THE NONSENSE. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO TRY TO START OUT WITH SO MANY CHANGES AS THEY ARE TRYING TO DO. TOTAL NONSENSE SEE YOU IN PASADENA YAY YAY YAY (HERE PICTURE AN OLD LADY OF 88 DANCING WITHOUT FALLING OVER)
Was so super to stand talking to Dan Jones in Pasadena ca Nice group lovely talk great comments and well worth it from beginning to end. Know that if you are close enough to attend one you must consider yourself fortunate as it is a wonderful experience.
Saw a short clip from the documentary where an older, well-meaning black lady said, "My grandmother told me before going to school that Cleopatra was black, don't let them tell you anything differently". With that it does feel like an attempt to revise history when I wish they'd choose accuracy over agenda. All that said, how often does Hollywood get anything right? Not terribly often. I'll choose to redirect my outrage to something more deserving. Moving on....
Great post again, Dan. Considering the related topic of narrative history (your usual business until you took a fun detour into writing historical fiction), I continue to be puzzled by the specific interest groups that state that only a member of their group can write a "valid" history of their group. This view seems to be quite prevalent today in some circles and, in my opinion, this argument sits at the edge of your post. With this logic, only an Egyptian woman with a specific blend of Greek ancestors could play Cleopatra or someone would have their knickers in a twist. If this were the case for history, Dan, you would only be able to write Crusader history if you had been a crusader yourself. As usual, you are a voice of centrist reason in this regard -- actors are playing a character, so any actor could play Cleopatra. Given that you've solved the "acting thing" so definitively, can you give us some guidance on how we should navigate the related issue of narrative history without looking: a) reactionary, b) bigoted, c) too conservative, d) too liberal or somehow e) all of the above?
Again, it’s not that simple. Do I think people of one origin the only ones entitled to write entertainment or even history books about their own peoples history? No. However, many groups of folks and marginalized populations are not given the chance most of the time to even reach positions where they can make big budget movies or write books or research their people’s histories. They aren’t given the same opportunities for a multitude of reasons.
(And no, just because Hollywood plucks a few newbs and throws them into the lions den for woke cred does not suddenly make the industry fair.)
No, that doesn’t mean I’m saying people like Dan or you didn’t work hard and achieve things, but let’s be honest with ourselves at least, that it’s always going to be a little easier for you compared to some others.
That’s the thing that frustrates me time and time again about discourse. Everyone is rabidly anti woke or they are on a rage riot to cancel the whole world. Nuance is dead.
Thank you for your response, Farida. I think you have made a judgement, however, based upon my picture. That fact that I am a white man doesn't mean that I'm "anti-woke" or I've had it easier. You cannot know what my experience has been, unless I let you know (which I haven't). I don't write history -- but I do read it a lot, including works by emerging historians writing for their communities from within their communities. My old professor of historiography (may peace be upon his soul as he was in his late sixties more than forty years ago), drummed into our heads that the bias of all authors is in everything that they write but that historians have a special responsibility to not force their point of view on their readers. We read dozens of good and bad examples of history -- a habit that I've maintained throughout my lifetime. History that espouses a view at the exclusion of evidence is in danger of being hagiography. Nuance is not dead, in my opinion, but it is wounded.
Just to recap...I said in my comment that the thing that frustrates me, time and time again about discourse is everyone is rabidly anti woke or they are on a rage riot to cancel the world.
I made a generalized statement about my frustration with discourse these days. I did not say “Shane you are anti woke.” It’s clear in my statement that I am not referring to you personally. You made that judgment yourself.
Another thing I did not say is anything about what you read or don’t read. I made a generalized statement about how many marginalized populations in history (and in present day) are not given the chance to reach positions where they can make a big budget movie or write/research their people’s histories for a multitude of reasons.
When it comes to whether or not you’ve had it easier… Shane, I’m sure you have struggled in your life. Suffering is the human condition. But can you honestly say you haven’t had it easier than others in at least some ways?
I’ll use myself as an example, I am half Arab but I’m also half European. Throughout my life people have often made the assumption that I am from “somewhere else” pretty immediately upon laying eyes on me. (Especially after hearing my name.) That being said, my skin, while olive toned, is also white. I have without a doubt likely benefited from that fact many times. I was also born in Tennessee and not in Mali so I got to go to school instead of going to work as a child slave in at a cocoa farm.
I'm pleased that this debate is civil. Thank you for that. I think what I gently brought to your attention is that you singled out Dan and I with the comment, "... let’s be honest with ourselves at least, that it’s always going to be a little easier for you compared to some others." I don't believe that I made any assumptions about your intent with that comment, but perhaps I am wrong.
Of course, there are others less fortunate than I have been. It is a shame that this is the case. To quote Helen Keller, "I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet." We should all be thankful for what we have and not envy others for what we lack.
BTW, I live in Cyprus, which -- as you probably know -- is very close to both Egypt and Syria. I know all of the region very well from decades of exploring. I am constantly reminded of the terribly plight of the Syrian people. Latakia is less than 40 km from here and we feel the same earthquakes and can watch the war planes on patrol. I know Damascus better than I know my home town from spending more time in the Syrian capital than in my place of birth (in Kansas). I can say the same for Cairo.
While I don't disclose much about myself on public message boards, I will just say that I am Muslim and today we are celebrating the largest holiday of the year after fasting for the entire month of Ramadan. I just completed my 32nd fast and I have not missed a single day in that period. If you are also Muslim, may I wish you Eid Mubarak on the occasion of Eid al Fitr.
You have a beautiful and meaningful name, as you undoubtedly know. Farida means "Beautiful Pearl" in Arabic for those readers who do not know. It is a name hopefully bestowed by a loving family. Warm regards. Shane.
You live in Cyprus?! That’s tremendous! I have never been lucky enough to go there or to visit Syria. I am indeed Muslim, (though a rather agnostic-y one) so Eid Saeed!
My name was my grandmother’s name, and it means “unique”. Growing up, I didn’t like it...as an adult I absolutely love it.
While I dream of a life spent increasingly further away from my phone, this exchange is an example of why I love the internet. My love of history comes from my love of people, really. Thanks for sharing yourself
If the only people we allow to portray Cleopatra in the future are those of Ptolemaic/Seleucid ancestry, we're going to have a bad time. Acting is essentially playing make believe for adults. Methinks society would be a lot better off if we stopped taking things like casting decisions so seriously.
“You have confused dippy TV drama for some sort of time-travelling social justice machine.”
Great line. I am 1/4 Egyptian and 1/4 Syrian, as a kid born in the Smoky Mountains and growing up in the States (9/11 happened when I was in high school) I would have loved to see someone who looked like me on TV. Anyone who has been profoundly and repeatedly othered can probably relate to those feelings. So I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’ve made it.
That being said it’s been a week’s worth of eye rolling for me watching this story play out. People are always looking for something to be outraged about these days. Im pretty sure you could upload a video of clip of this new Cleopatra show on Porn Hub and it’s popularity would eclipse all others within minutes. In fact, starting a Rage Porn Hub could be a billion dollar idea. Cut me in if you start it.
You make a great point about wanting to see people who look like you. Additionally, there's the fact that nonwhite and/or cis-gendered actors have historically not been afforded the same variety of acting opportunities that their straight, white counterparts routinely get. Perhaps if the opportunities were more evenly dispersed, the "actors act, for god's sake" argument would carry a bit more weight.
Exactly, and look, I like good movies, compelling stories and well produced art. So I’m not saying make a bunch of hackey remakes of movies and jam some poor marginalized souls into them so you can prove that you are doing the right thing.
Or go ahead and make them, (who cares, I just won’t watch) but also please support those people out there with marginalized voices telling amazing stories, acting, producing excellent art. Look at shows like Ramy.
Oh I don't mean token casting at all. But an understanding and willingness to see a gay actor as a straight character, even a romantic lead, for example. Just like straight actors get the opportunity to do.
We"re 20-odd comments in and still nobody has mentioned Jesus Christ Superstar?! Fifty years ago, Christ was cast inthe film as white, blonde and blue-eyed. Do we say now that this doesn't matter (à la the examples of Cleopatra and Anne Boleyn), or is this different because Christ has for centuries been painted as a white person and so the film is another example of a biased rendition?
Casting is one thing. We've been casting people who were not the same race as the person or character probably since the beginning of drama. Let's not get into the history of boys playing women and the history of drag, though we supposedly get the word drag from the sound their dresses made on the stage during Shakespeare's time.
My issue is to say that someone who was mostly inbred Macedonian‐Greek was African, when she probably wasn't, misses actual African women who ruled Egypt and other parts of Africa. We need to hear and read about these women. We hear about interesting European women more than Asian, African, Indigenous, etc. women.
Yes, yes to all of this
You forgot Amanda Barrie in Carry on Cleo, pretty sure Cleopatra didn't have a Lancashire accent 🤔🤔
I remember a lass on your facebook page moaning like a bitch about Jodie Turner-Smith playing Anne Boleyn and how she was outraged at history being changed etc, etc. Thankfully though I was able to calm her down (not!) by reassuring her that Anne Boleyn was still a dead headless white woman. For some reason she told me to fuck off, can't see why? 🤣
😂🤣😂🤣
Such a lip smacking finger licking fresh eclair with hot coffee for breakfast post. Kind of like Richard Burton in a senate toga emerging from a carriage full of blond Roman bougies. Glorious.
OMG
1. "Feet up, spark a fat one, watch the internet burn down." well, yeah
and not only that but then
2, "It might piss you off to see any person playing any historical figure with whom they do not share the same race, sexuality, gender-identification, etc etc, because you are insane, you believe in destroying the first principles of acting, you have lost the faculty of critical reasoning, or at least the ability to reason a position through to a general conclusion, you have drunk all the twenty-first century Kool Aid now, it’s time for you to go home." I know SOOO many of those people.
ALL IN ONE POST???
Brilliant
As Bob Marley said, "You got so much tings to say right now"
Might be showing my age but now I have "Cleopatra, comin' at ya" stuck in my head 😆
First sign of the apocalypse!! Personally I'm pissed that Anthony Field was cast as a postman on Bluey. Anthony? The guy that had children singing and their mothers swooning??? He should have gotten a much bigger part. Where do I write in!?!?
I just love your straight forward, no messing, these are the facts pieces. Love ‘em ! Bravo.
ALWAYS INTERESTING. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ANGLE AND EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING SO REVISIONIST THAT IT MAKES ONE NUTTY IF THEY PAY ATTENTION TO THE NONSENSE. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO TRY TO START OUT WITH SO MANY CHANGES AS THEY ARE TRYING TO DO. TOTAL NONSENSE SEE YOU IN PASADENA YAY YAY YAY (HERE PICTURE AN OLD LADY OF 88 DANCING WITHOUT FALLING OVER)
Was so super to stand talking to Dan Jones in Pasadena ca Nice group lovely talk great comments and well worth it from beginning to end. Know that if you are close enough to attend one you must consider yourself fortunate as it is a wonderful experience.
Pictures too with a genuine happy hug.
Saw a short clip from the documentary where an older, well-meaning black lady said, "My grandmother told me before going to school that Cleopatra was black, don't let them tell you anything differently". With that it does feel like an attempt to revise history when I wish they'd choose accuracy over agenda. All that said, how often does Hollywood get anything right? Not terribly often. I'll choose to redirect my outrage to something more deserving. Moving on....
Great post again, Dan. Considering the related topic of narrative history (your usual business until you took a fun detour into writing historical fiction), I continue to be puzzled by the specific interest groups that state that only a member of their group can write a "valid" history of their group. This view seems to be quite prevalent today in some circles and, in my opinion, this argument sits at the edge of your post. With this logic, only an Egyptian woman with a specific blend of Greek ancestors could play Cleopatra or someone would have their knickers in a twist. If this were the case for history, Dan, you would only be able to write Crusader history if you had been a crusader yourself. As usual, you are a voice of centrist reason in this regard -- actors are playing a character, so any actor could play Cleopatra. Given that you've solved the "acting thing" so definitively, can you give us some guidance on how we should navigate the related issue of narrative history without looking: a) reactionary, b) bigoted, c) too conservative, d) too liberal or somehow e) all of the above?
P.S .Asking for a friend 😂
Again, it’s not that simple. Do I think people of one origin the only ones entitled to write entertainment or even history books about their own peoples history? No. However, many groups of folks and marginalized populations are not given the chance most of the time to even reach positions where they can make big budget movies or write books or research their people’s histories. They aren’t given the same opportunities for a multitude of reasons.
(And no, just because Hollywood plucks a few newbs and throws them into the lions den for woke cred does not suddenly make the industry fair.)
No, that doesn’t mean I’m saying people like Dan or you didn’t work hard and achieve things, but let’s be honest with ourselves at least, that it’s always going to be a little easier for you compared to some others.
That’s the thing that frustrates me time and time again about discourse. Everyone is rabidly anti woke or they are on a rage riot to cancel the whole world. Nuance is dead.
Thank you for your response, Farida. I think you have made a judgement, however, based upon my picture. That fact that I am a white man doesn't mean that I'm "anti-woke" or I've had it easier. You cannot know what my experience has been, unless I let you know (which I haven't). I don't write history -- but I do read it a lot, including works by emerging historians writing for their communities from within their communities. My old professor of historiography (may peace be upon his soul as he was in his late sixties more than forty years ago), drummed into our heads that the bias of all authors is in everything that they write but that historians have a special responsibility to not force their point of view on their readers. We read dozens of good and bad examples of history -- a habit that I've maintained throughout my lifetime. History that espouses a view at the exclusion of evidence is in danger of being hagiography. Nuance is not dead, in my opinion, but it is wounded.
Hey Shane,
Just to recap...I said in my comment that the thing that frustrates me, time and time again about discourse is everyone is rabidly anti woke or they are on a rage riot to cancel the world.
I made a generalized statement about my frustration with discourse these days. I did not say “Shane you are anti woke.” It’s clear in my statement that I am not referring to you personally. You made that judgment yourself.
Another thing I did not say is anything about what you read or don’t read. I made a generalized statement about how many marginalized populations in history (and in present day) are not given the chance to reach positions where they can make a big budget movie or write/research their people’s histories for a multitude of reasons.
When it comes to whether or not you’ve had it easier… Shane, I’m sure you have struggled in your life. Suffering is the human condition. But can you honestly say you haven’t had it easier than others in at least some ways?
I’ll use myself as an example, I am half Arab but I’m also half European. Throughout my life people have often made the assumption that I am from “somewhere else” pretty immediately upon laying eyes on me. (Especially after hearing my name.) That being said, my skin, while olive toned, is also white. I have without a doubt likely benefited from that fact many times. I was also born in Tennessee and not in Mali so I got to go to school instead of going to work as a child slave in at a cocoa farm.
Your teacher/mentor sounds wise…rest in peace.
Dear Farida,
I'm pleased that this debate is civil. Thank you for that. I think what I gently brought to your attention is that you singled out Dan and I with the comment, "... let’s be honest with ourselves at least, that it’s always going to be a little easier for you compared to some others." I don't believe that I made any assumptions about your intent with that comment, but perhaps I am wrong.
Of course, there are others less fortunate than I have been. It is a shame that this is the case. To quote Helen Keller, "I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet." We should all be thankful for what we have and not envy others for what we lack.
BTW, I live in Cyprus, which -- as you probably know -- is very close to both Egypt and Syria. I know all of the region very well from decades of exploring. I am constantly reminded of the terribly plight of the Syrian people. Latakia is less than 40 km from here and we feel the same earthquakes and can watch the war planes on patrol. I know Damascus better than I know my home town from spending more time in the Syrian capital than in my place of birth (in Kansas). I can say the same for Cairo.
While I don't disclose much about myself on public message boards, I will just say that I am Muslim and today we are celebrating the largest holiday of the year after fasting for the entire month of Ramadan. I just completed my 32nd fast and I have not missed a single day in that period. If you are also Muslim, may I wish you Eid Mubarak on the occasion of Eid al Fitr.
You have a beautiful and meaningful name, as you undoubtedly know. Farida means "Beautiful Pearl" in Arabic for those readers who do not know. It is a name hopefully bestowed by a loving family. Warm regards. Shane.
Hey Shane,
You live in Cyprus?! That’s tremendous! I have never been lucky enough to go there or to visit Syria. I am indeed Muslim, (though a rather agnostic-y one) so Eid Saeed!
My name was my grandmother’s name, and it means “unique”. Growing up, I didn’t like it...as an adult I absolutely love it.
While I dream of a life spent increasingly further away from my phone, this exchange is an example of why I love the internet. My love of history comes from my love of people, really. Thanks for sharing yourself
😊🌙
If the only people we allow to portray Cleopatra in the future are those of Ptolemaic/Seleucid ancestry, we're going to have a bad time. Acting is essentially playing make believe for adults. Methinks society would be a lot better off if we stopped taking things like casting decisions so seriously.
Written in a way only you can do 😀😀 love it
Very well said. If you don’t like it, don’t watch. Not bloody rocket science is it?
This topic has been popping up all over the place this week. Finally, I read something reasonable about it. Thanks.
“You have confused dippy TV drama for some sort of time-travelling social justice machine.”
Great line. I am 1/4 Egyptian and 1/4 Syrian, as a kid born in the Smoky Mountains and growing up in the States (9/11 happened when I was in high school) I would have loved to see someone who looked like me on TV. Anyone who has been profoundly and repeatedly othered can probably relate to those feelings. So I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’ve made it.
That being said it’s been a week’s worth of eye rolling for me watching this story play out. People are always looking for something to be outraged about these days. Im pretty sure you could upload a video of clip of this new Cleopatra show on Porn Hub and it’s popularity would eclipse all others within minutes. In fact, starting a Rage Porn Hub could be a billion dollar idea. Cut me in if you start it.
You make a great point about wanting to see people who look like you. Additionally, there's the fact that nonwhite and/or cis-gendered actors have historically not been afforded the same variety of acting opportunities that their straight, white counterparts routinely get. Perhaps if the opportunities were more evenly dispersed, the "actors act, for god's sake" argument would carry a bit more weight.
Exactly, and look, I like good movies, compelling stories and well produced art. So I’m not saying make a bunch of hackey remakes of movies and jam some poor marginalized souls into them so you can prove that you are doing the right thing.
Or go ahead and make them, (who cares, I just won’t watch) but also please support those people out there with marginalized voices telling amazing stories, acting, producing excellent art. Look at shows like Ramy.
Oh I don't mean token casting at all. But an understanding and willingness to see a gay actor as a straight character, even a romantic lead, for example. Just like straight actors get the opportunity to do.
I am absolutely with you on that